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it was long before jack smith was active. we pressed on how the aides and even lawyers seemed to become directly involved not just making arguments or defending things, which they are allowed to do, but in advancing active work that appeared to break the law, which could be indictable. and these leads that we built on, investigators followed them. here we are in our special right now. i'm going to air that exchange and him ultimately admitting it. not defending its legality but saying he did it with giuliani. that is trying to put in false electors and we're airing this in the full context, about 90 seconds from the original interview and you will hear him admit the very elector plan that he's indicted for this week in arizona. >> there's also been reporting about the attempt to seat fraud due lent electors. is that something you worked on or would support in michigan? >> that's so funny. >> not fraudulent. >> we fought to seat the electors. the trump campaign asked us to do that. did you ever make calls like that regarding w
it was long before jack smith was active. we pressed on how the aides and even lawyers seemed to become directly involved not just making arguments or defending things, which they are allowed to do, but in advancing active work that appeared to break the law, which could be indictable. and these leads that we built on, investigators followed them. here we are in our special right now. i'm going to air that exchange and him ultimately admitting it. not defending its legality but saying he did it...
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we saw one of the supreme court this week where the court was skeptical about the ability of jack smith to bring some of these charges, they been stretched to such a limit the question is law. whether or not the people who really are interfering in the election are those bringing suit for the sole purpose of tearing down the private opponent in a campaign potentially even jailing him prior to the election so they can keep our. >> these court cases against trump are all out will assault connected to the biden white house to stop the political rival trump. the courts to knock out and gager opponent. let's not america. >> it's just a real problem. we are used to hearing other countries do things like this. the fact that we have so many in the press corps right now on this situation because there's a short term thinking going on in my was one of the things that was so important the supreme court talked about this week, the person arguing on behalf of jack smith wanted to talk about the specifics of this case and suggested is one time figure will never deal with this again and the court want
we saw one of the supreme court this week where the court was skeptical about the ability of jack smith to bring some of these charges, they been stretched to such a limit the question is law. whether or not the people who really are interfering in the election are those bringing suit for the sole purpose of tearing down the private opponent in a campaign potentially even jailing him prior to the election so they can keep our. >> these court cases against trump are all out will assault...
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so at best, jack smith is left with come if the ruling goes as expected, the difficult task of delineating and pretending that while this step he took as president was political and personal but it wasn't official. i don't see how you take the 208 and a separate the two issues as personal and presidential -- how you take and a separate the two issues as presidential and personal. host: do you think you should get immunity? guest: the constitution is set up where the president has prerogatives as chief executive and that means he is not subjected to scrutiny by the courts for those in office. host: justice kagan said that the founders did but the immunity clause in the constitution and they meant not to because we would've gotten rid of the king. guest: i guess the response to that would be immunity flows from the constitution that he has prerogatives as president of the united states, the executive power resides in him. who can check him beyond the processes envisioned in the constitution, which specifically is impeachment. host: we are taking calls for tom fitton, president of judicial wa
so at best, jack smith is left with come if the ruling goes as expected, the difficult task of delineating and pretending that while this step he took as president was political and personal but it wasn't official. i don't see how you take the 208 and a separate the two issues as personal and presidential -- how you take and a separate the two issues as presidential and personal. host: do you think you should get immunity? guest: the constitution is set up where the president has prerogatives...
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in fact, that's one of the reasons that jack smith's team recorded the all of their interviews of witnesses and provided actual transcripts in the mar-a-lago documents investigation because they didn't want to be confused of having incomplete fbi 302s, so bove should have known going in there that that is a criticism that can be lobbed at any fbi 302. the other thing i wanted to say about sue's observation that trump is tired. there have been days trump has been alone. they have seen the criticism in the press about him falling asleep and/or how small he seems when he's solitary, so he is always accompanied by one of his lawyers directly adjacent to him now when they go to these long side bars. >> they actually shuffled over to make sure there's someone sitting next to him. >> so they actually change seats? i just want to -- i just want to clarify that point, a lawyer will actually change seats to be sitting next to donald trump when the others may have gone up to the bench? >> that's absolutely true, and it seems like the strategy is twofold. one, to make sure he always has company and doe
in fact, that's one of the reasons that jack smith's team recorded the all of their interviews of witnesses and provided actual transcripts in the mar-a-lago documents investigation because they didn't want to be confused of having incomplete fbi 302s, so bove should have known going in there that that is a criticism that can be lobbed at any fbi 302. the other thing i wanted to say about sue's observation that trump is tired. there have been days trump has been alone. they have seen the...
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whatever they decide, if there is an actual trial, let's say they do side with jack smith as a special counsel, trial would start about three months after that, and it is estimated that a trial could take up to 12 weeks. all this timing is critical, of course, because we're now 192 days away from november 5th, election day. it is not a lot of time here and the justices in some ways really understand that. as you said, you played that clip of neil gorsuch saying whatever they write, they're writing a rule for the ages. over and over again we heard the justices and lawyers talk about the stakes of this case. so it will be really interesting to see what happens as election day comes upon us. >> yamiche alcindor, thank you very much. glen, trump's lawyer conceded during the arguments that some of the acts that trump is accused of were not official acts. here is an exchange. >> the petitioner turned to a private attorney, was willing to spread false claims of election fraud to spearhead his challenges to the election results. private? petitioner conspired with another private attorney who c
whatever they decide, if there is an actual trial, let's say they do side with jack smith as a special counsel, trial would start about three months after that, and it is estimated that a trial could take up to 12 weeks. all this timing is critical, of course, because we're now 192 days away from november 5th, election day. it is not a lot of time here and the justices in some ways really understand that. as you said, you played that clip of neil gorsuch saying whatever they write, they're...
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>> well, i think, julie, they pinned down dreeben, making the argument for jack smith team. they pinned him down to a concession there is a bit of presidential immunity that goes around the core of the president's duties. justice kagan is correct they didn't use the word immunity. trump's team pushes back the vesting of executive power in the president itself imply indicates immunity because congress cannot enact a law that criminalizes the president's performance with his core responsibilities. so i think what will happen here is two-fold. one is you have to decide how far outside the core of the president's duties the immunity extends. and the second thing is because the d.c. circuit did not go through the mental acrobatics of trying to figure out which acts in the indictment are private and don't have immunity and which are official and do, that has to be done. so i would anticipate that they may send the case back to the judge with instructions to sort out what's official and what is not? >> julie: i get word they have resumed the trial. david pecker on the stand, the fo
>> well, i think, julie, they pinned down dreeben, making the argument for jack smith team. they pinned him down to a concession there is a bit of presidential immunity that goes around the core of the president's duties. justice kagan is correct they didn't use the word immunity. trump's team pushes back the vesting of executive power in the president itself imply indicates immunity because congress cannot enact a law that criminalizes the president's performance with his core...
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jack smith wants one before the election. >> dana: david spunt in washington, d.c. for us. thank you so much. joining us for more on all this is attorney will sharp. he is on the legal team representing former president trump before the u.s. supreme court and a candidate for missouri attorney general. thank you for making time for us today. david axelrod was a campaign consultant and worked in the white house for obama. he now has a big podcast and tweeted this yesterday. based oh than what we heard today from scotus it may seem trump may skate past the election without standing trial on the january 6th charges. if so the new york city trial is likely the only he will face pre-november. under the circumstances the best scenario he could have hoped for. how do you see it? >> we were certainly optimistic coming out of the supreme court yesterday. they seem to be taking this issue of presidential immunity, the scope of presidential immunity, very seriously and they seemed very receptive to our arguments without a robust presidential immunity for a president's official acts in
jack smith wants one before the election. >> dana: david spunt in washington, d.c. for us. thank you so much. joining us for more on all this is attorney will sharp. he is on the legal team representing former president trump before the u.s. supreme court and a candidate for missouri attorney general. thank you for making time for us today. david axelrod was a campaign consultant and worked in the white house for obama. he now has a big podcast and tweeted this yesterday. based oh than...
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. >> jack smith brought conspiracy and obstruction charges against mr. trump last year, but the case has been dogged down in appeals, telling the justices that the former president's actions would lead to dark consequences. >> his novel theory would immunize presidents for bribery, treason, sedition, murder and here conspireing to use fraud to overturn the results of an election. >> the ultimate result in the case likely turning on the line between actions taken for personal gain and a president's official duties. >> if you don't have immunity, you are not going to do anything. you are going to become a ceremonial president. you are not going to take any of the risks, both good and bad. >> none of this stopping mr. trump's current trial in manhattan. tabloid mogul david pecker expected back on the stand today after telling the jury thursday how his company purchased the story of karen mcdougal. another woman that alleged an affair with mr. trump before the election, admitting i wanted to protect my company, i wanted to protect myself and i wanted also to
. >> jack smith brought conspiracy and obstruction charges against mr. trump last year, but the case has been dogged down in appeals, telling the justices that the former president's actions would lead to dark consequences. >> his novel theory would immunize presidents for bribery, treason, sedition, murder and here conspireing to use fraud to overturn the results of an election. >> the ultimate result in the case likely turning on the line between actions taken for personal...
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smith for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the court's decision in this case could significantly delay the special counsel's already stalled trial, even pushing its start past the november election. during the nearly three hours of arguments liberal justices were deeply skeptical. justice sotomayor pressing trump's lawyer on where his argument could lead. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity? >> it would depend on the hypothetical. we can see that could well be an official act. >> reporter: justice judge ketanji brown jackson asking if there is no accountability what would stop a president from, quote, turning the oval office into the seat of criminal about activity in this country. >> if the potential for criminal liability is taken off the table, wouldn't there be a significant risk that future presidents would be emboldened to commit crimes with abandon while in office? >>
smith for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the court's decision in this case could significantly delay the special counsel's already stalled trial, even pushing its start past the november election. during the nearly three hours of arguments liberal justices were deeply skeptical. justice sotomayor pressing trump's lawyer on where his argument could lead. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate...
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smith. the supreme court focused on the presidency and not trump. that gets to something that president trump said moments ago. here is what he said just walking into court. >> yesterday i the supreme court having to do with immunity. i heard the argument was brilliant. i listened to it last night and thought it was great. the judges' questions were great and all presidents have to have immunity. this has nothing to do with me. absolutely nothing. all presidents have to have immunity. or you don't have a president. certainly not a president the founders wanted. >> shannon: that seemed to be a lot of what the justices were reading through yesterday. what's the future implication not just for this case but for presidents to come? i think it was justice gorsuch said we're writing a rule for the ages. >> exactly. that is the question here. not just about what you think of donald trump. but about whether or not the presidency, the institution of the presidency is protected from lawsuits that coul
smith. the supreme court focused on the presidency and not trump. that gets to something that president trump said moments ago. here is what he said just walking into court. >> yesterday i the supreme court having to do with immunity. i heard the argument was brilliant. i listened to it last night and thought it was great. the judges' questions were great and all presidents have to have immunity. this has nothing to do with me. absolutely nothing. all presidents have to have immunity. or...
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the decision by the way is likely to have huge implications on special counsel jack smith's election interference case against donald trump as well as in year's presidential race. >>> newly returned from china, san francisco mayor london breed now on the stump for votes in san francisco. she wants to keep her job and is making the case to voters at the neighborhood level. she's got some major opposition you see here. several high-profile challengers. campaigning on promises of change. each touting their own solutions to the city's problems from crime to the housing crisis. the candidates are all deploying a strategy and that is to get into neighborhoods to have face-to-face conversations and wilson walker went along with mayor breed who is doing the same. this time at san bruno avenue in the portola district. >> oh my goodness. you -- leon, you got my grandmothers out here in the cold. >> reporter: in a blustery afternoon wind, mayor london breed hit san bruno avenue, going door-to-door along a business corridor with a large chinese population in a sure sign that the campaign and han
the decision by the way is likely to have huge implications on special counsel jack smith's election interference case against donald trump as well as in year's presidential race. >>> newly returned from china, san francisco mayor london breed now on the stump for votes in san francisco. she wants to keep her job and is making the case to voters at the neighborhood level. she's got some major opposition you see here. several high-profile challengers. campaigning on promises of change....
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the claim is central to trump's defense in the january 6th case that special counsel jack smith brought on trump says many of the election interference efforts smith alleges were official acts. liberal justices are not buying the argument. >> the framers did not put an immunity clause into the constitution. wasn't the whole point that the president was not a monarch and the president was not supposed to be above the law. >> conservatives on the high court are not fully embracing trump's defense, but they maintain the president needs some protections from prosecution. >> he makes a mistake. he's subject to the criminal laws just like anybody else. you don't think he's in a special a peculiarly precarious position >> to send this case back down to the trial court, if that happens, it would mean significant delays for trump's election interference case. back to you at the desk. reggie and julian. >> thanks, amanda. coming up on abc seven mornings, tech investors are getting some encouraging news. what's driving revenue for google and microsoft . >> and we want to give you a live look at th
the claim is central to trump's defense in the january 6th case that special counsel jack smith brought on trump says many of the election interference efforts smith alleges were official acts. liberal justices are not buying the argument. >> the framers did not put an immunity clause into the constitution. wasn't the whole point that the president was not a monarch and the president was not supposed to be above the law. >> conservatives on the high court are not fully embracing...
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jack smith in the courtroom and all justices went back and forth with two extreme positions. former president's legal team says he has immunity and special counsel says he has none. what it seemed like justices are trying to get to is middle ground, presidents need some level of immunity so they can make difficult decisions, but not efverything he ever did woud be covered. they are trying to find middle ground. as jonathan turley and colleagues have said, i get the sense they send it to a lower court to deal with again, that turns into a net win for trump legal team. they'll have that private vote today. we won't know for a while. >> guy: we were talking on the guy benson show. plug there. what does that mean for the timeline? that is crucial here. >> shannon: yeah, if that would happen, they would have to pick and choose through what are private acts, what were official acts he did as president, not as a candidate or person. as the president. that is going to take some time before you get back to the trial on the merits. one question yesterday, i think from justice barrett,
jack smith in the courtroom and all justices went back and forth with two extreme positions. former president's legal team says he has immunity and special counsel says he has none. what it seemed like justices are trying to get to is middle ground, presidents need some level of immunity so they can make difficult decisions, but not efverything he ever did woud be covered. they are trying to find middle ground. as jonathan turley and colleagues have said, i get the sense they send it to a lower...
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lawyers for special counsel jack smith argue no president is above the law. here's abc news reporter jay o'brien. >> this morning, the supreme court weighing former president trump's unprecedented claim. absolute presidential immunity. the argument the president can never face criminal prosecution for anything they do in office linked to their official duties without presidential immunity from criminal prosecution, there can be no presidency as we know it. the claim central to trump's defense in the january 6th case, brought by special counsel jack smith. trump asserting many of the election interference efforts smith alleges were official acts. liberal justices not buying the argument. >> the framers did not put an immunity clause into the constitution. wasn't the whole point that the president was not a monarch and the president was not supposed to be above the law. >> responding to justice sotomayor, trump's attorney, arguing a president assassinating a political rival they view as corrupt could even qualify as an official act and not be subject to crimina
lawyers for special counsel jack smith argue no president is above the law. here's abc news reporter jay o'brien. >> this morning, the supreme court weighing former president trump's unprecedented claim. absolute presidential immunity. the argument the president can never face criminal prosecution for anything they do in office linked to their official duties without presidential immunity from criminal prosecution, there can be no presidency as we know it. the claim central to trump's...
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yesterday's historic high-court arguments stem from special counsel jack smith's case charging trump with plotting to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. >> whatever we decide is going to apply to all future presidents. >> reporter: the justices suggested that presidents should have some level of protection from criminal prosecution for official acts, though with that came more questions. >> how exactly would we determine what the -- what an official act is? >> reporter: the supreme court is expected to issue its ruling by early summer. so depending on that ruling and whether the court says presidents have some immunity but not full immunity, this could end up getting sent back to a lower court which likely would delay the election interference trial until after this november's election. >> i suspect that's part of the plan. jarred hill in new york. thank you. >> reporter: thanks. >>> onto the other criminal case, as we said. trump's criminal trial continues today in manhattan. the defense is expected to resume cross-examination of the lead prosecution witness, fo
yesterday's historic high-court arguments stem from special counsel jack smith's case charging trump with plotting to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. >> whatever we decide is going to apply to all future presidents. >> reporter: the justices suggested that presidents should have some level of protection from criminal prosecution for official acts, though with that came more questions. >> how exactly would we determine what the -- what an official act...
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smith for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the liberal justices pressed trump's lawyers on where that argument could lead if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person in and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts that for which he can get immunity? but the conservative justices made the case that presidents need some protection. >> presidents have to make a lot of tough decisions about enforcing the law, and they have to make decisions about questions that are unsettled. did i understand you to say, well, you know, if he makes a mistake, he makes a mistake. he's subject to the criminal laws just like anybody else. you don't think he's in a special a peculiarly precarious position. >> the takeaway from yesterday's arguments expect a delay in thel laws just like anybody else. you don't think he's in a special a peculiarly precarious position. >> the takeaway from yesterday's arguments expect a delay in the former national enquirer publisher david pecker was ba
smith for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the liberal justices pressed trump's lawyers on where that argument could lead if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person in and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts that for which he can get immunity? but the conservative justices made the case that presidents need some protection. >> presidents have to make a lot of tough decisions about enforcing the...
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so at best, jack smith is left with come if the ruling goes as expected, the difficult task of delineating and pretending that while this step he took as president was political and personal but it wasn't official. i don't see how you take the 208 and a separate the two issues as personal and presidential -- how you take and a separate the two issues as presidential and personal. host: do you think you should get immunity? guest: the constitution is set up where the president has prerogatives as chief executive and that means he is not subjected to scrutiny by the courts for those in office. host: justice kagan said that the founders did but the immunity clause in the constitution and they meant not to because we would've gotten rid of the king. guest: i guess the response to that would be immunity flows from the constitution that he has prerogatives as president of the united states, the executive power resides in him. who can check him beyond the processes envisioned in the constitution, which specifically is impeachment. host: we are taking calls for tom fitton, president of judicial wa
so at best, jack smith is left with come if the ruling goes as expected, the difficult task of delineating and pretending that while this step he took as president was political and personal but it wasn't official. i don't see how you take the 208 and a separate the two issues as personal and presidential -- how you take and a separate the two issues as presidential and personal. host: do you think you should get immunity? guest: the constitution is set up where the president has prerogatives...
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but that's what special counsel jack smith asked for. he actually said the justices should expedite this case so that they could have a decision by the end of the term. so that's what they're doing to do. whether or not this is going to go past too long before an election will be held in november, that's going to be up to how the court writes it and whether there are still issues left for lower courts to resolve. norah. >> really interesting. jan crawford, thank you. >>> instead of being at those supreme court hearings, donald trump was in a courthouse in lower manhattan for his so-called hush money trial. that's where we find cbs's robert costa. good evening, robert. >> reporter: good evening, norah. former president donald trump isn't attacking david pecker, the former publisher of the "national enquirer," just yet, but pecker's testimony here today in lower manhattan could threaten trump, offering new details about an alleged catch and kill operation to influence the 2016 election. this morning, former president trump weighed in on a
but that's what special counsel jack smith asked for. he actually said the justices should expedite this case so that they could have a decision by the end of the term. so that's what they're doing to do. whether or not this is going to go past too long before an election will be held in november, that's going to be up to how the court writes it and whether there are still issues left for lower courts to resolve. norah. >> really interesting. jan crawford, thank you. >>> instead...
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jack smith can say, i'll pare this down and include only the crimes that are private acts. or as the lawyer for the solicitor general -- or for the special counsel said yesterday, thinking of donald trump in his role as office holder versus office seeker. there are a lot of acts here as office seeker where i think he could say, fine, even if -- you know, we'll litigate these issues another day, but i'm ready to go to trial on just these issues relating to his private acts. if that's the case, i think that this case could go to trial before the election. >> that's interesting. we'll keep an eye on that. jen, as you know, the trump team has always felt a delay is a win for them with the theory of the case being, if they can push all of this stuff back with delay, delay, delay, past election day, he gets himself re-elected, makes it all go away. on the other side of that, though, as you also know very well, talking to people around the biden campaign, they are not counting on these cases to save them. they are running a campaign to win. they do believe that his sitting in cour
jack smith can say, i'll pare this down and include only the crimes that are private acts. or as the lawyer for the solicitor general -- or for the special counsel said yesterday, thinking of donald trump in his role as office holder versus office seeker. there are a lot of acts here as office seeker where i think he could say, fine, even if -- you know, we'll litigate these issues another day, but i'm ready to go to trial on just these issues relating to his private acts. if that's the case, i...
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>> brian, i think the most important concession was by michael dreeben who was the lawyer for jack smith and for the biden justice department who basically conceded that there is presidential immunity from prosecution. now, he doesn't allow that it's as robust as president trump argues. but he certainly made a concession to the court that there is an am bit of executive authority that congress can't criminalize once you make a decision that there is presidential immunity, then the question becomes what acts does it cover? so i think by the end of the argument, it became at least to my mind much more likely that the court may resolve this by sending the case back to trial judge in washington with instructions to go through the indictment and sort out what is an official act of the presidency what is a private act that isn't covered by immunity. if that's what the court does, i don't see how this case gets to trial prior to election day. >> ainsley: what happens if this does. smith's way on almost everything. you know, ainsley, judges behave better when they know someone is checking their
>> brian, i think the most important concession was by michael dreeben who was the lawyer for jack smith and for the biden justice department who basically conceded that there is presidential immunity from prosecution. now, he doesn't allow that it's as robust as president trump argues. but he certainly made a concession to the court that there is an am bit of executive authority that congress can't criminalize once you make a decision that there is presidential immunity, then the...
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but that said they couldn't have done this in december when jack smith asked them to and they didn't. >> well, what would it off? what i think they should do here? something that is, they won't do this. i'm afraid, but they could say, look we're not going to decide whether the official acts of the president are subject to criminal prosecution. but we'll leave that for another time. what we're going to tell you is overthrowing the overthrowing election. it's not an official act and make a factual finding and it says, as they did in bush versus gore, which embarrassing versus them, but where they, they said look, someone has to do this. we'll do it, we'll say what the president did here are the former president. these are, these are crimes, these are clearly crimes. these, this is a coup. and now he can be prosecuted for those things when we are saying that legal question, we postpone the factual question, we decide here and now it doesn't seem like it, sir, what did you see yesterday? >> every time we find ourselves at a new junction on this particular issue, i become deeply enraged be
but that said they couldn't have done this in december when jack smith asked them to and they didn't. >> well, what would it off? what i think they should do here? something that is, they won't do this. i'm afraid, but they could say, look we're not going to decide whether the official acts of the president are subject to criminal prosecution. but we'll leave that for another time. what we're going to tell you is overthrowing the overthrowing election. it's not an official act and make a...
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smith the greenlight entirely to pursue these charges related to trump's actions on and around january six, the high court appears likely to leave a lot of the work to lower courts that could take months and further delay a trial that was originally set for march 4, we are also hours from trump returning to new york city courtroom for his hush money trial. >> the former tabloid publisher david pecker, back on the stand yesterday, describing to jurors how he paid a former playboy playmate to keep her quiet about an alleged affair with trump and how his decision not to pay for stormy daniels story led to michael cohen ultimately paying for it. judge juan merchan also announcing he'd hold a hearing next wednesday where he's going to make a decision about whether trump violated his gag order. that supposed to be an off day for the trial after court wrapped up yesterday, trump seemed to walk back his vow to testify in his hush money trial well, if it's necessary right now, i don't know if you heard about today. >> today, was just incredible. people are saying the experts, i'm talking about
smith the greenlight entirely to pursue these charges related to trump's actions on and around january six, the high court appears likely to leave a lot of the work to lower courts that could take months and further delay a trial that was originally set for march 4, we are also hours from trump returning to new york city courtroom for his hush money trial. >> the former tabloid publisher david pecker, back on the stand yesterday, describing to jurors how he paid a former playboy playmate...
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the take was oral argument was disaster for special counsel jack smith. at least 5-quart republican seemed eager to o the very leasg to permit trump to delay, criminal trial adding the trust does seem to hedged the mostme john roberts also seem toec think that trump enjoys some immunity from federal prosecution. a little bit about the argued cases and clerk for is justice scalia and thomas. chris, is the real reason for the left to be in despair tonight customer >> i think it was a good day for former president trump info t i supreme court court, laura. but i think that is because he's got the law and common sense on his side. i i mean, this is -- the questiont edas you just read is whether aa president can bevi subjected toh criminal liability after leavine office for official acts, right? nobody is arguing here about the president's being immune for private acts.th so, murder, speeding, whatever. but the thing is, if we crossedn the rubicon of saying that our presidents can bche criminallyon charged with for their official acts, we don't h have a countr
the take was oral argument was disaster for special counsel jack smith. at least 5-quart republican seemed eager to o the very leasg to permit trump to delay, criminal trial adding the trust does seem to hedged the mostme john roberts also seem toec think that trump enjoys some immunity from federal prosecution. a little bit about the argued cases and clerk for is justice scalia and thomas. chris, is the real reason for the left to be in despair tonight customer >> i think it was a good...
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this was jack smith with a very receptive court trying to push for something that makes no sense. speedy trial, right. is entirely are 99% designed to protect a defendant, particularly incarcerated defendant, from sitting and rotting in prison. and then eventually being acquitted. so this idea that they had to have done was pretty shamelessly political. and i think that's why the supreme court bristled when jack smith said less expedited, i don't think they care about i have this whole conversation months ago. well, they don't care about the political timeline that jack created. and so what i'm saying is the realistic ending of this case, if the majority holds with how oral argument went, is that they're going to be returning all of these cases were immunity is in play to fact-finding lower courts, which will then have and you're like you have with police shootings about whether it's in the course of employment, then they're probably going to march right back up to the supreme part and say, how about this is not the last appeal to go all the way up without question. >> well, if it
this was jack smith with a very receptive court trying to push for something that makes no sense. speedy trial, right. is entirely are 99% designed to protect a defendant, particularly incarcerated defendant, from sitting and rotting in prison. and then eventually being acquitted. so this idea that they had to have done was pretty shamelessly political. and i think that's why the supreme court bristled when jack smith said less expedited, i don't think they care about i have this whole...
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smith needed anyone to make thoas arguments it was going to be mike dreeben. >> was jack smith there today? >> he was at the counsel table today. >> you said some justices appeared open to this idea, the argument being made by the former president's legal team. which justices? >> there were a few, actually. two of trump's own appointees seemed more receptive to the arguments than perhaps anyone else on the court. particularly justice brett kavanaugh was very concerned about the idea of letting criminal prosecutions go forward over actions taken by the president. he continually floated this idea, this rule that would say that unless a statute ecifically mentions the president, that then it can't be applied against hem. that is a slight variation on the whole question of immunity but it would get their via a different rout and would essentially mean the end of jack smith's case. neil gorsuch moated the possibility of this situation, he said would lead to just every president pardoning themselves on the way out of office which is a novel and kind of dangerous situation for the court to
smith needed anyone to make thoas arguments it was going to be mike dreeben. >> was jack smith there today? >> he was at the counsel table today. >> you said some justices appeared open to this idea, the argument being made by the former president's legal team. which justices? >> there were a few, actually. two of trump's own appointees seemed more receptive to the arguments than perhaps anyone else on the court. particularly justice brett kavanaugh was very concerned...
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he represents special counsel jack smith. putting that out there bribery, treason, sedition, murder, and here conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power. this is the entire ball game. it's not something you can slice in half and come up with a tidier way that keeps you out of the politics -- >> if you're someone who studied the 2025 project, the platform for a second term term, there is no separation at the policy level between trump, the private person who would act, and trump the wannabe resident again in his official acts. they are together officially and publicly. when he ran the first time, to unearth what he really wanted to do with the border. it was a scoop and leak that led to the store we know about and covered the part to do illegal things at the border. it's in a document and you can keyword search it and the official and private acts of the second term agenda. what they do doesn't just matter in terms of the first-ever file and transfer of power in america havin
he represents special counsel jack smith. putting that out there bribery, treason, sedition, murder, and here conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power. this is the entire ball game. it's not something you can slice in half and come up with a tidier way that keeps you out of the politics -- >> if you're someone who studied the 2025 project, the platform for a second term term, there is no separation at the policy level between trump,...
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. >> i thought it had to be a dispiriting day for special counsel, jack smith. you saw, one after another, the members of the conservative majority on the court basically signal discomfort with his position and some degree of alignment with trump's claim that there should be at least some type of immunity or protection for a former president from criminal charges. i have a vivid memory of sitting there, and having each of those justices, justice kavanaugh, chief justice john roberts, and judge gorsuch, going one by one and making clear that they were not going to come out in this case the way that jack smith wants them to come out. at that point, it's a numbers game that i do not think looks good. >> mark, were you as surprised as i was to hear the line of questioning that came out of some of the more conservative justices, like brett kavanaugh and judge gorsuch and samuel alito? >> i was. the sense that i got from those justices was that to them, to their minds, the real threat to democracy was not trump's effort on january 6th, to overturn a free and fair pres
. >> i thought it had to be a dispiriting day for special counsel, jack smith. you saw, one after another, the members of the conservative majority on the court basically signal discomfort with his position and some degree of alignment with trump's claim that there should be at least some type of immunity or protection for a former president from criminal charges. i have a vivid memory of sitting there, and having each of those justices, justice kavanaugh, chief justice john roberts, and...
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i don't think anybody has thought of so far that jack smith could do. i don't want to put any idea i sat in his head because i hate this prosecution. prosecution r. fai i think it's unconstitutional and i think it's wrong. bu would be interestingsee to see if jack smith triedifsm to take that concessioitn and rn with it. i don't know what the courts would do. macoi'm sure, if i would have me that concession. but with all thade that said, m, either you agree that this case now no chance of being triede of wefore november, or at least is that your take? we only have about 10 seconds each. grean secot yeah, i just think to's impossible to get this done. it's inevitable that the supreme court, regardles gets of their precise decision, they got to send it back to thee lower court for findings of fact. at the very leas t by the trial court judge and professor. there's a current indictment. it can't put under the current indictment the cur, can't be trd before the election. but if they amended the indictment to include only the conceded thd publiceitu private
i don't think anybody has thought of so far that jack smith could do. i don't want to put any idea i sat in his head because i hate this prosecution. prosecution r. fai i think it's unconstitutional and i think it's wrong. bu would be interestingsee to see if jack smith triedifsm to take that concessioitn and rn with it. i don't know what the courts would do. macoi'm sure, if i would have me that concession. but with all thade that said, m, either you agree that this case now no chance of being...
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and drinking tonight jack smith's case against trump in major jeopardy. the supreme court signaling they will talk about this. the justice signal that they want the lower court to sort through one by one which of trump's actions were official duties and which were private before making a decision on immunity. they want this specific. this coming as it appears justices will ultimately reject trump's attempt to throw out the case of absolute immunity. >> my question is whether the very robust form of immunity that you are advocating is really necessary. >> i'm trying to under stand what the incentive is for turning the oval office into the seat of criminal activity in this country. >> they di d not put a clause in the constitution but wasn't the whole point that the president was not a monarch and was not supposed to be above the law. >> they're not buying the immunity argument but they're not looking like they will move quickly on it and move the january 6 case forward either. >> evan, i think that is the confusing things.. it is clear how they view it and
and drinking tonight jack smith's case against trump in major jeopardy. the supreme court signaling they will talk about this. the justice signal that they want the lower court to sort through one by one which of trump's actions were official duties and which were private before making a decision on immunity. they want this specific. this coming as it appears justices will ultimately reject trump's attempt to throw out the case of absolute immunity. >> my question is whether the very...
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jack smith's team was trying to undo 234 years of presidential precedent in the supreme cour t, arguing that presidents should be held criminally liable for actions they've taken office. >> the judges, though, not convinced. >> there's the old song aboutabu indicting a ham sandwich. yes, but i think just a few weeks you had a lot of experience in the justice department. you comeyoiv across a lot of cas where the the u.s. attorney or another federal prosecutor really wanted to indict a casenf in the grand jury, refused to do so. >> t are suc that,es you know. yes. but i think that the other oncea in a while there's an eclipse to justice kavanaugh a asked like, why wouldn't this create a vicious cycle of partisas cre presidential prosecutions and pardons and certain going forward is that the system when former forme presidents are subt to prosecution in the historyg of morrison versus olson, tells us it's not going to stop. us's going to it's's goingo cyca cycle back and be used against the current president or pr president or and the next president and the next president after that presi
jack smith's team was trying to undo 234 years of presidential precedent in the supreme cour t, arguing that presidents should be held criminally liable for actions they've taken office. >> the judges, though, not convinced. >> there's the old song aboutabu indicting a ham sandwich. yes, but i think just a few weeks you had a lot of experience in the justice department. you comeyoiv across a lot of cas where the the u.s. attorney or another federal prosecutor really wanted to indict...
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the legitimacy of the appointment of jack smith. that is not even before the court. and thomas asked about that. he remain it is most mysterious on the court today. we don't know what he thought. >> i think his jenny was showing. when you work for a president, you know these are just guys and girls and these particular guys consume all of this. and what was clear today, they will direct quote segments from all of these programs. alito gives speeches in front of conservatives and i'm sure conservatives in the audience who don't watch our programs are like what is he talking about. they are bound to trump in their feelings of being persecuted. they found common cause with the feeling of persecution. what is amazing to me as a nonlawyer is a federal judge carter out in california was like the further we get, the murmur key it gets but in the immediate aftermath, trump clearly committed the crimes and federal judges said more likely than not he committed felonies. him and that eastman guy. the further we get, the the more the people of the highest levels, the court held.
the legitimacy of the appointment of jack smith. that is not even before the court. and thomas asked about that. he remain it is most mysterious on the court today. we don't know what he thought. >> i think his jenny was showing. when you work for a president, you know these are just guys and girls and these particular guys consume all of this. and what was clear today, they will direct quote segments from all of these programs. alito gives speeches in front of conservatives and i'm sure...
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smith's indictment are indeed private good x what led to the change from your team? >> well, i think we've always conceded, first of all, that there is no presidential immunity for president's private acts in office. i think we've also conceded that obviously president trump engaged in many private acts during the time period in question. i thought in many respects the much more damning concession, if you could call what we did a concession at all? oh was michael dreeben essentially admitting the attorney for the special counsel's office essentially
smith's indictment are indeed private good x what led to the change from your team? >> well, i think we've always conceded, first of all, that there is no presidential immunity for president's private acts in office. i think we've also conceded that obviously president trump engaged in many private acts during the time period in question. i thought in many respects the much more damning concession, if you could call what we did a concession at all? oh was michael dreeben essentially...
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but jack smith, the special counsel who is, of course, prosecuting donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january 6 and the attack on the capitol. he says no—one is above the law, and that's what the justices have been wrestling with. they, i think, were pretty sceptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. now, that may be bad news for donald trump, but they also may want to make a kind of distinction between acts done as a private citizen or for private reasons, and acts done as official as part of the officialjob. and that may mean they push this back down to the lower courts, which could delay the case even further. and we're already looking at a very tight timetable forjack smith, the special counsel, to bring this case before the election. pro—palestinian protests on american university and college campuses are spreading, with hundreds of arrests, as police confront the demonstrators. some are likening the student activism to the wave of protests during the vietnam war in the late 1960s. unrest intensified last week after studen
but jack smith, the special counsel who is, of course, prosecuting donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january 6 and the attack on the capitol. he says no—one is above the law, and that's what the justices have been wrestling with. they, i think, were pretty sceptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. now, that may be bad news for donald trump, but they also may want to make a kind of distinction between acts done as a private...
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the real conspiracy here is jack smith, alvin bragg, and frankly fani willis, all working too. inspire to impact the 2024 election. that is the real concern well, i hear the points you're making, although you are conflating di just separate sovereigns? >> obviously, jack smith, alvin bragg, fani willis, are separate entities entirely and the actual crimes charged against trump in the men, they're all democrats, laura, they're all democrats i hear i hear about the politics and what you're making. but the real issue here i want to refocus on the conversation about the concerns about immunity more broadly. and one of the reasons to answer your question, people do want the answer beforehand. i think as they want the transparency to decide who they would like to vote for it based on either an absence of or an actual criminal well record, but let's get back to the supreme court congress thinks i know this is a very important issue for you, but laura, but good transparency that they paid after president trump now for eight years, i mean that we know more about president trump than pro
the real conspiracy here is jack smith, alvin bragg, and frankly fani willis, all working too. inspire to impact the 2024 election. that is the real concern well, i hear the points you're making, although you are conflating di just separate sovereigns? >> obviously, jack smith, alvin bragg, fani willis, are separate entities entirely and the actual crimes charged against trump in the men, they're all democrats, laura, they're all democrats i hear i hear about the politics and what you're...
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but, they used a grand jury, jack smith did to get that information. she said that is why we need a trial. a trial would be the first solution but your solution is the second best one, which would allow the evidence to get before the american people. >> mike pence, take the stand. tell us what happened. all of the, bill barr, take the stand. eric hirschman, lawyer in the white house, take the stand. it is at least a way, it is not a full trial but it is a hearing and that is a way at least to get some of the evidence before the public. >> andrew, do you agree with me that all nine justices, there wasn't a justice who said that a solution is an improper one? >> exactly. >> so, neil, there remains, though, when i listen to judge amy coney barrett, it also, there is also this other question, which is a certain amount of this is performative. you don't get the feeling that samuel alito is really looking for an answer that can change what he was thinking when he walked in there today. i don't mean to pick on him, it can happen with anyone of the justices at
but, they used a grand jury, jack smith did to get that information. she said that is why we need a trial. a trial would be the first solution but your solution is the second best one, which would allow the evidence to get before the american people. >> mike pence, take the stand. tell us what happened. all of the, bill barr, take the stand. eric hirschman, lawyer in the white house, take the stand. it is at least a way, it is not a full trial but it is a hearing and that is a way at...
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but jack smith, the special counsel who is, of course, prosecuting donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january the sixth and the attack on the capitol, he says no—one is above the law, and that's what the justices have been wrestling with. they, i think, were pretty sceptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. now, that may be bad news for donald trump, but they also may want to make a kind of distinction between acts done as a private citizen or for private reasons, and acts done as official as part of the officialjob. and that may mean they push this back down to the lower courts, which could delay the case even further. and we're already looking at a very tight timetable forjack smith, the special counsel, to bring this case before the election. donald trump himself was not in washington — he was in a courtroom in new york, where the first ever criminal trial of a us president is under way, and he addressed the supreme court case. the us supreme court had a monumental hearing on immunity and the immunity having to do with the
but jack smith, the special counsel who is, of course, prosecuting donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january the sixth and the attack on the capitol, he says no—one is above the law, and that's what the justices have been wrestling with. they, i think, were pretty sceptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. now, that may be bad news for donald trump, but they also may want to make a kind of distinction between acts done as a...
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but that's what special counsel jack smith asked for. he actually said the justices should expedite this case so that they could have a decision by the end of the term, so that is what they are going to do. whether or not this is going to go past too long before an election will be held in november, that's going to be up to how the court writes it. and there will still be decisions left for lower courts to resolve. norah? >> norah: all right, really interesting. jan crawford, thank you. instead of being at those supreme court hearings, donald trump was in a courthouse in lower manhattan for his so-called hush money trial. that's where we find cbs's robert costa. good evening, robert. >> reporter: good evening, norah. former president donald trump isn't attacking david pecker, the former publisher of the "national enquirer," just yet, but pecker's testimony today here in lower manhattan could threaten trump, offering new details about an alleged catch and kill operation to influence the 2016 election. this morning, former president trump
but that's what special counsel jack smith asked for. he actually said the justices should expedite this case so that they could have a decision by the end of the term, so that is what they are going to do. whether or not this is going to go past too long before an election will be held in november, that's going to be up to how the court writes it. and there will still be decisions left for lower courts to resolve. norah? >> norah: all right, really interesting. jan crawford, thank you....
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smith has an option and i wonder if yes thought about it he could actually achieve what he wants to achieve , as sleazy as i think it is trying to mainly get a down and dirty conviction before the election if he did the following, a fee tomorrow had the grand jury reindict donald trump only charging private acts not acts that are immunized trump's own lawyer acknowledged publicly on the record that it would be constitutional permissible to indict and try a president for private acts and of the indictment as it exists today is a combination of jumble really of private acts and public acts so jack smith would probably have the option of going back and getting a new indictment and thereby moving the supreme court decision by simply taking the position that trump's lawyer made and using it as the basis for prosecuting he may lose that case obviously because i don't know whether there is enough in the private act to warrant a criminal prosecution but that is an option that i know i don't think he knew else has thought of so far that jack smith could do i don't want to put any ideas in hi
smith has an option and i wonder if yes thought about it he could actually achieve what he wants to achieve , as sleazy as i think it is trying to mainly get a down and dirty conviction before the election if he did the following, a fee tomorrow had the grand jury reindict donald trump only charging private acts not acts that are immunized trump's own lawyer acknowledged publicly on the record that it would be constitutional permissible to indict and try a president for private acts and of the...
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smith for attempting to overthrow the results of the 2020 election. john yang is here now in studio with more. >> amna, it was a big day for former president trump in a number of courts -- in addition to the nearly three hours of oral arguments in his immunity case at the supreme court, a grand jury in arizona indicted several of his closest allies, for allegedly trying to subvert the 2020 election. following all of this is the “newshour's” william brangham, and our supreme court analyst marcia coyle. they were both at the supreme court this morning. remind us the basics. what is president's argument and the response? >> very simply, president trump is asking the court to say that a former president has absolute immunity for conduct involving his or her official acts, and that that immunity stretches all the way to the outer perimeter of his office. and he's looking to certain clauses in the constitution and certain precedents to bolster that argument, but the government is saying basically there is no immunity clause in the constitution. it does
smith for attempting to overthrow the results of the 2020 election. john yang is here now in studio with more. >> amna, it was a big day for former president trump in a number of courts -- in addition to the nearly three hours of oral arguments in his immunity case at the supreme court, a grand jury in arizona indicted several of his closest allies, for allegedly trying to subvert the 2020 election. following all of this is the “newshour's” william brangham, and our supreme court...
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jack smith, the special counsel prosecuting donald trump for his attempt to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january 6, the attack on the capital, he said no one is above the law. that is what the justices have been working with. they i think were skeptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. that may be bad news for donald they also made a distention between acts done as a private citizen for private reasons and acts done as official, as a part of the official job. that may mean they will push this back down to the lower courts, which could delay the case even further. we are already looking at a very tight timetable for jack smith the special counsel to bring this case before the election. of course, we also know, don't we, if donald trump were to win november's election, in this case still hanging over him, he could simply ask the justice department to drop it. caitriona: gary at the u.s. supreme court and manhattan, thank you both for joining us. with me now and studio is marcus childress, the former investigative council for the congressional committee
jack smith, the special counsel prosecuting donald trump for his attempt to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january 6, the attack on the capital, he said no one is above the law. that is what the justices have been working with. they i think were skeptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. that may be bad news for donald they also made a distention between acts done as a private citizen for private reasons and acts done as official, as a part of the official job....
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and certainly not on the timeframe that jack smith wants. there is a lot of interesting questions raised by the court here on both sides of the aisle. they have a lot to sort through and muddle through, really, given the lack of caselaw law they have to rely on. and it is very likely that they send this back down for some clarification and some of these points regarding the prosecution. christian: this issue of whether acts were committed uer official duties, it is an important point. you can see why the supreme court wants to get this right. if you back to the case of george w. bush at the -- at the time of the iraq invasion, he went into iraq without a u.n. resolution, there were some people who wanted to bring a prosecution against him on crimes of aggression. it would be limiting for a president, if there was not immunity, for some acts that were carried out within official duties. sara yeah, that's right. trump's team raises some legitimate points here, legitimate arguments about essentially stunting the ability of the president to do t
and certainly not on the timeframe that jack smith wants. there is a lot of interesting questions raised by the court here on both sides of the aisle. they have a lot to sort through and muddle through, really, given the lack of caselaw law they have to rely on. and it is very likely that they send this back down for some clarification and some of these points regarding the prosecution. christian: this issue of whether acts were committed uer official duties, it is an important point. you can...
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the prosecutor jack smith and justice department was grilled for nearly twice that amount of time. but almost immediately at the start of proceedings, under questioning, we got confirmation that the appeals court hypothetical, that crazy hypothetical about trump being able to assassinate political enemies and never be charged, we got confirmation at the start that that was not a fluke. president trump maintains and his lawyers maintain that he really is immune from prosecution, specifically for killing his political rivals. >> i'm going to give you a chance to say if you stay by it. if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military or order someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts from which he can get immunity? >> it would depend on the hypothetical, but we could see that could be an official act. >> it could and why? >> that could be an official act, really? you might officially as part of his duties want to kill his domestic political rival and if it is an official act, trump's lawyers say he is immune from prosecution. in
the prosecutor jack smith and justice department was grilled for nearly twice that amount of time. but almost immediately at the start of proceedings, under questioning, we got confirmation that the appeals court hypothetical, that crazy hypothetical about trump being able to assassinate political enemies and never be charged, we got confirmation at the start that that was not a fluke. president trump maintains and his lawyers maintain that he really is immune from prosecution, specifically for...
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but jack smith, the special counsel who is, of course, prosecuting donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january 6 and the attack on the capitol. he says no—one is above the law, and that's what the justices have been wrestling with. they, i think, were pretty sceptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. now, that may be bad news for donald trump, but they also may want to make a kind of distinction between acts done as a private citizen or for private reasons, and acts done as official as part of the officialjob. and that may mean they push this back down to the lower courts, which could delay the case even further. and we're already looking at a very tight timetable forjack smith, the special counsel, to bring this case before the election. 0ur north america correspondent nada tawfik has been covering trump's hush—money trial. we are still on the first witness in this case, the publisher of the national enquirer, and he gave more details into these payments that he said he made on behalf of donald trump through his lawyer, michae
but jack smith, the special counsel who is, of course, prosecuting donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and the events around january 6 and the attack on the capitol. he says no—one is above the law, and that's what the justices have been wrestling with. they, i think, were pretty sceptical of the idea of total immunity from prosecution. now, that may be bad news for donald trump, but they also may want to make a kind of distinction between acts done as a private...
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Apr 26, 2024
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smith's team was trying to undo 234 years of presidential president. arguing that presidents should be held criminally liable for actions they take an office. judges though, not convinced. >> there is the old... about indicting a ham sandwich. you have live experience in the justice department. you come a lot -- across a lot of cases where the u.s. attorney or another federal prosecutor really wanted to indict a case in the grand jury refused to do so. >> there are such cases yes. i think that the. >> once in a while there's an eclipse to. >> jesse: he asked why would in this create a vicious cycle of partisan presidential prosecutions and pardons? >> the concern going forward is that the system when former presidents are subject to prosecution, history tells us is not going to stop. it's going to cycle back and be used against the current president or the next president in the next president after that >> jesse: president not having immunity opens up a pandora's box. if trump gets charged does that mean bill clinton gets charged for bombing aspirin fa
smith's team was trying to undo 234 years of presidential president. arguing that presidents should be held criminally liable for actions they take an office. judges though, not convinced. >> there is the old... about indicting a ham sandwich. you have live experience in the justice department. you come a lot -- across a lot of cases where the u.s. attorney or another federal prosecutor really wanted to indict a case in the grand jury refused to do so. >> there are such cases yes. i...
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Apr 25, 2024
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disaster for the special counsel jack smith. at least five of the court's republicans seemed eager at the very least to trump delay federal criminal trial adding that the justice who seemed to hedge the most, john roberts, also seemed to think that trump enjoys at least some immunity from criminal prosecution joining us now. chris landau. chris, is there real reason for the left to be in despair tonight? >> i think it was a good day for former president trump in the supreme court, laura. but i think that's just because he's got the law and common sense on his side. i mean, this is -- the question as you just read is whether a president can be subjected to criminal liability after leaving office for official acts, right? nobody is arguing here about the president's being immune for private acts. right? so, you know, murder, speeding, whatever. the thing is, if we cross the rubicon of saying that our presidents can be criminally charged for their official acts, we don't have a country anymore. i mean, how is a president -- how is
disaster for the special counsel jack smith. at least five of the court's republicans seemed eager at the very least to trump delay federal criminal trial adding that the justice who seemed to hedge the most, john roberts, also seemed to think that trump enjoys at least some immunity from criminal prosecution joining us now. chris landau. chris, is there real reason for the left to be in despair tonight? >> i think it was a good day for former president trump in the supreme court, laura....